Version 6.0 open BETA discussion

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This topic contains 99 replies, has 4 voices, and was last updated by squirel squirel 1 year, 4 months ago.

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  • #6014
    mtrek.com
    mtrek.com
    Keymaster

    This thread is for discussion of all 6.0 BETA-related topics. This includes balance issues, bugs, improvement areas, or any other feedback. The new class specifications will be posted here when the beta goes live.

    6.0 beta ship specs (link)

    Known/reported bugs:

    • AVG-IX regenerates more than its starting value of mines (and drones?) [fixed- tests show no recurrence of this bug. please let me know if you see it again. thanks!]
    • Vor’Cha spawns in gamma. [fixed- vor’cha now spawns in alpha at klinzhai];

    Possible balance/gameplay issues:

    • KEV possibly OP with fast-regen torps and the longer cloak- maybe a compromise between this one and the old one?
      – I spent some time in the KEV this evening. It is plainly obvious this ship is overpowered.. but not quite as badly as it may seem. I’m thinking 15 seconds less cloak (75 to 60) should get it about right. If that’s not quite enough,maybe just drop it back to the original 50. Looking for more inputs before a change though.
    • KBOP possibly UP with only one tube and slightly stronger hulls in many other classes
      -After a second go in the KBOP, I slightly concur that it’s a little on the weak side in this particular pool of ships. I’m on the fence whether or not to add a tube. To do so would almost certainly require an adjustment somewhere else on the ship to even it out… maybe a slight increase in cloak cost, weaker hull (45 to 48?). The KBOP really is just about “right” and I think it can already survive almost forever in the right hands. I’ll wait for whatever Pete has to say.
    • Galaxy possibly UP (limited strategy options – maybe move Ursus cluster to v. 4.x location 0, 0, 30,000) split the Galaxy in to its own report for individual-level balancing consideration. The Ursus cluster/hunting grounds for slower ships will be continued below.
    • Slower/campy ships have limited areas to work in. This might not be so much a balance issue, but is still a gameplay dynamic that varies much from the delta/mtrek.pro layout. Originally reported as a Galaxy-specific issue, I’ve split it to include other slower, short-range type ships. [moved the ursus cluster. Since the area has been added to the bot patrol areas, it might be necessary to ramp up the total number of bots. more to follow…

      — The “more to follow”: bots are currently set at 17. seems about right for now.

      — Another follow-up: After watching the bots interact with the cluster for a while,I’m concerned that the extra cluster is spreading the bots even thinner throughout the quad, mostly because they now spend an inordinate amount of time fleeing from, and returning-to the cluster. With 17 bots running, that’s 9 out of the current 13 in alpha, with 1 in omega and another 3 in gamma. I’m not entirely sure why they get stuck in this loop around Ursus, but I have a fairly good idea.. Sb 3/4 has been a ghost town for about 1/2 hour.

      UPDATE 18 FEBRUARY Ursus cluster has been returned to its original location. Until I can figure out a way to make the bots patrol in a more circuitous manner, I’ll probably need to leave ursus out of the equation. What I have figured out, is a method to alter the frequency patrol destinations occur in a bot’s rotation. This will help me adjust the distribution of the bots throughout the game; unfortunately it does nothing to reduce “lost in space” time while travelling at high-Z coords. If all else fails, Ursus (or a similar cluster) could be re-introduced, but on a similar plane as other Alpha objects. There are other, deeper considerations behind this as well, and I’ve added a post to the front page detailing this. The bots will remain at their increased number of 17 for now.

    Suggestions and feature requests:

    • Enable Delta quad(?) / increase chances of finding a fight [I’ll leave this one alone for now at least. I’m open to the possibility, but I’d like to see how the beta plays out. see my comments below.]
    • Remove some offensive names from the bot pool [removed the reported names. Thanks!]
    • (meta-issue) A concern was expressed that the buffing of the entire selection of ships, coupled with the sheer number of ships available -has created a situation where ships are homogenous/lack individuality. Examples given were ships with very similar specs and/or functions and play styles like galor/larson kev/galaxy valdore/vshar [I don’t personally share the sentiment- or at least I don’t think having a ship with a similar feel to that of another ship detracts from the game. I am however trying to get a real sense of the impact these gameplay changes have on our regular players, and I’m trying to avoid a situation where the play becomes too linear or “forced”. I’d also like to let the beta run its course before addressing game-wide balancing of this scale. I’ll keep this open as a consideration and I’ll definitely take another look at the “meta game”- whether it has been improved/worsened, or is simply different -obit]

    COMPILED PATCH NOTES BELOW:

    6.0.1 – 18 FEB
    With version 6.0.1 (beta) I’ve returned the Ursus cluster to its original location (where it was when the beta launched a few days ago) and removed it from the bot patrol routes. I realize that this might annoy some of you, so I feel it warrants a bit of an explanation… and an apology if I’ve completely missed the mark with this one.

    Aside from the issues it (the cluster) causes with the bots, it also puts somewhat of a barrier(?) in the gameplay and I believe, actually leads to a less interesting type of game in the long run. Essentially, the cluster functions much like a mini-version of Delta/mtrek.pro- both of which were awesome in their own ways, but aside from the variety of ships in mtrek.pro, there was also a lack of depth.

    It’s true that 6.0 basically boils down to a classic 4-quadrant layout with some more ships thrown in. But the concept was to include not simply my favorite elements of each version, but to merge the ones that worked best together and formed a sort of chemistry that works -one that adds uncertainty and creates tension which rises from that uncertainty.

    A small zone that offers comfort and killing efficiency because all supplies are available, (and targets are plentiful) and offers security (no uncertainty) because there’s an easy save spot right there… is anathema to the concepts of “uncertainty -> tension -> enjoyment”.

    One of the most enjoyable parts of the game as a player, is the struggle to balance the risk/reward ratios of your choices. To yes, have confidence that your low-risk options will work, but more importantly, to know that your riskier decisions have the potential to pay off -in both the short term and in the long term. The tough part of making this idea a reality, is that many of the ships are much easier to keep alive now, as compared to 5.x and earlier versions/ships. (I believe I have some pretty sound reasoning behind the ship balancing efforts though.)

    I’m relying on decades of familiarity with the classic layout, that tell me, whether against humans or bots, it offers one of the most immersive gaming experiences possible -because no two zones are completely alike. Your priorities and strategies must shift as you move from one area to another, and likewise, when your needs change (supplies, targets, etc.) you have to be able, and willing to adjust your location. I’m definitely -not- saying that it’s lazy or wrong to camp an area where you’re likely to earn a lot of kills, only that it should be just as rewarding to explore other options in addition to a core strategy like that. Those other options being basically, hunting down your prey.

    Ultimately, it still rests on the player to decide whether or not he wants to venture out from (for example) sb3/4 to find bots elsewhere in the quad, or even move to another quad altogether for a short while. Certainly, there’s also the opportunity to have ships of different classes saved in several locations (and quadrants) to take advantage of the ever-shifting tide of bots.

    As I’ve said before of course, nothing is necessarily “set in stone” for 6.0’s final release, and I’m really interested to see how the beta plays out in its current configuration. I also would really prefer to work with fewer variables throughout the ship-balancing stage of the beta.

    I’d like to offer a sincere apology for the disruption and uncertainty (the not-“good” kind of uncertainty) caused by my initial knee-jerk reaction of moving Ursus in the first place. I came into the beta with a pretty solid plan for the release flow and the desired final outcome of 6.0… though I may have nearly derailed the whole thing with this Ursus mess.

    The beta is soft-scheduled to run for about 30 days, but there’s no reason that time frame couldn’t be adjusted while issues still need ironing out. As with 5.x, 6.x is planned to be a long-term release, so this is the best time for any needed course corrections. As always, I’d love to hear any feedback on this, or any other aspect of the game. Personally, I’d still prefer to keep as much discussion as possible in the beta-discussion forum topic; I’m only posting this here because this was a particularly tough (but I’m hoping right) decision.

    Thanks!
    -obit

    6.0.2 – 21 FEB

    After quite a lot of testing and reading your feedback, I’ve made some ship balance adjustments. Most were very slight tweaks, but here are some of the more noticeable ones:

    • Reduced KEV-12 and KBOP cloak duration to original levels. (50 seconds and 60 seconds, respectively)
    • Added an oblit tube to KBOP. (From 1 tube to 2)
    • Bumped DY-600’s warp cost back to original. (From 1 to 2)
    • VSHAR warp/impulse energy reduction/lowered cloak cost.
    • EXCEL hull adjustment. (45 to 40) Torp capacity up to 66
    • ACR-45 energy tweak, removed drones, bumped mines to 12.
    • CDA-180 +10 torps. (70 to 80)
    • RWAR hull adjustment. (45 to 50)
    • Larson +8 torps. (48 to 56)

    I’ve also bumped the bots up from 17 to 20, and reduced their respawn interval from every 13 seconds to every 60 seconds.

    This week, I’ll concentrate a little more on the middle-speed classes in my testing, and perhaps get through the warp 14 ships. There will likely be another balance patch next weekend, which will hopefully dial-in most of the remaining ships, and i’ll have a look at the results of this weekend’s patch to see if anything else is needed.

    LATEST SHIP SPECS TABLE

    obit

    6.0.3 – 22 FEB

    Slight adjustment to the in-game High Scores (overall):

    The main scoreboard now shows the top 20 highest-ranked ships, which are then ordered by gold. This should only affect a small percentage of ships.

    This was done to somewhat align the in-game top-20 high scores with the ones shown on the website. No actual ships were harmed in the process, and whenever a ship earns enough rank (damage given) to be on the scoreboard, it will show up.

    On a side note, (a little unrelated) I also fixed an error on the stats page where ships with fewer than 10 cfl and/or less than one hour played, were being included in conflict/time -dependent boards.
    -obit

    PS
    -Sorry, Harold! On the bright side, at Top Gorn‘s current pace, it’ll be back on there in no time, and probably well into the top 10. Pete, your ship, Universe was another one that was bumped; if it’s any consolation, it was replaced with one of your other ships.

    6.0.4 – 25 FEB

    • AVG-IX has been adjusted moderately. It should be more playable now, with the addition of a 50-second cloak and some of the warp energy slid over to impulse. Hull and Shield have been adjusted accordingly.
    • Fixed issue where Klingon D7 was spawning at Earth instead of Klinzhai. (plus a slight balance tweak)
    • There have been a few requests for this feature over the years, and it makes sense in today’s game: The HUD now gives preference to displaying “Mine count” versus “Drone count” when a ship is equipped with cloak, mines, and drones.
    • Addressed an issue where “greeting” text was either overflowing the standard-size TELNET screen/window, or in some cases word-wrapping down the player’s display. The greeting has been simplified to,
      “[Rank], welcome aboard [Ship Name]; a [Ship Class].”

    LATEST SHIP SPECS TABLE

    Please let me know if you encounter any issues. Thanks!
    -obit

    6.0.5 – 27 FEB

    • Fixed ACR-45 drones bug (old ACRs might still have some drones left in their inventories.)
    • Fixed HUD issue where mine qty was shown twice in some non-cloaking ships equipped with both mines and drones.
    • Also corrected a few discrepancies on the ship specs table.

    6.0.6 – 01 MAR

    • The CON-II (classic Multi-Trek, pre-1990; NOT the II-A) now has a DY-600-style xwarp.
    • Minor scoring adjustment for the D’Kora
    • Breaksave threshold set to 100 (vs the default 50 in clp’s game) and breaksave gold penalty has been reduced.

    CURRENT SHIP SPECS

    6.0.7 – 02 MAR

    The 6.0.3 patch has been reversed and the scoreboard now sorts in a “Classic” gold fashion. Appreciate the feedback!

    Other 6.0.7 Patch notes:

    • There were a few minor tweaks to the bots. (trying to cut back on the number of DY-600s, Spheres, and other long-lived bots for more variety.)
    • I’ve also taught the CON-II bots and the CDA-180 bots how to use their xwarp defensively on occasion.
    • fixed a bug where the Ferengi was spawning in the wrong area.

    -obit

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  • #6045
    obit
    obit
    Keymaster

    A note on the ship specs table:

    On paper, the specs might appear to be comparatively weak for a few classes, but in several cases the seemingly “weak” ships have had an adjustment or two which will not be apparent by the table alone. ie obliterators regenerating faster on one class than on another, or a higher/special gold-earning-rate.

  • #6048
    squirel
    squirel
    Participant

    Some reason in the docs it says arc has 60 phasers but it has 70…

    • #6051
      obit
      obit
      Keymaster

      ACR phaser specs updated on the chart. Thanks for catching that!

  • #6049
    squirel
    squirel
    Participant

    Is there something special about the vshar’s sphasers???

    • #6052
      obit
      obit
      Keymaster

      Not that I’ve noticed! (Aside from 50 pwr and 800 range, which makes them slightly strong compared to some ships…)

  • #6053
    squirel
    squirel
    Participant

    It was a fualty macro… I only had 25 phasers in the macro so I was wondering why it was giving the same amount of damage twice…

    And that’s why there was X number of ship(s) online at the same time… FOR SCIENCE πŸ™‚ but don’t tell the admin he’s really in to that following orders, and chain of command stuff XD

    • #6054
      mtrek.com
      mtrek.com
      Keymaster

      Heh 58,944,503 seconds until I’m no longer in a “chain-of-command”… But who’s counting?

  • #6087
    mtrek.com
    mtrek.com
    Keymaster

    Pete, when you read this, hats-off to you, buddy. The Galaxy is a challenging ship to keep alive!

    I’ve set out to spend at least an hour in each class for the Beta, running down the list (from slowest to fastest) and right now I’m working on the Keldon. I’ve spent an hour each, in the KEV, the KBOP, and in the Galaxy.

    The Galaxy’s new (slow) regen torps saved me a couple of times and the long cloak allowed me to sit and wait for a bot to leave (who could have easily killed me, had it been human) at least twice. My impatient “kill it with fire now” play-style doesn’t always mesh well with the warp 10 ships, and of the three I’ve completed the hour in so far, the Galaxy is the hardest to keep alive. It seems to be an absolute necessity to set up shop somewhere near a supply of mines and torps. Crystals are somewhat of an afterthought, but I found the Delta Vega area to be a great zone for killing bots, and as long as I’m conservative, I think I could maintain a presence there almost indefinitely. DV has the black hole nearby and sb1 isn’t too far away to be used as an escape route. As an added bonus, the asteroid field can be used to bring down the warp 14 bots, which otherwise seem nearly impossible to hit with more than a single torp volley when I decloak on them. Now I wouldn’t say it is underpowered by any means, but given the choice between the Beta Galaxy and the Beta KEV, I would probably lean slightly towards the KEV. Overall, I think the Beta Galaxy is just about right, but I’d definitely like to hear PZ’s take on it, since he’s logged more hours in the Galaxy than practically anyone else.

    The Beta KEV-12 now, is a beast. The cheap cloak is a pretty even trade-off with the Galaxy’s cheap warp cost, and the fast-regen oblits serve it well. I found I could chew through opponent after opponent, (bots of course) without having to spend too much time running and healing… which is good since the KEV was, and still is- not the best ship for running away. The extra 25 seconds of cloak made a world of difference and I felt pretty fearless covering distances in open space that would have been much riskier before, such as a trip to Vulcan. I’m not entirely sure whether the ship feels “overpowered” now, or if was simply enjoying it a lot more than I did the original KEV. Perhaps it’s both. But I wouldn’t say it’s far-off, and it certainly doesn’t seem like it would be game-breaking to leave it as-is. A nice thing about powerful SLOW ships, is that if you’re flying something fast, you can normally just walk away from it if need be. The real test would be trying to kill it in a faster ship like the II-A or CDA-120, which have traditionally been able to pose a real threat to the KEV.

    The KBOP is nice to fly too (for a slow boat) and I think I would possibly endure the warp 10 and low lethality of it long enough to get it on the scoreboards. It stayed alive easily enough, but with a single tube, I found it somewhat annoying not being able to kill most of my targets. I was often subjecting myself to unnecessary damage, just for an opportunity to do more damage with my phasers and to get in a few extra torps. Since I was practically always getting damage with it, I only bothered to get xtals one time with it and afterwards I just didn’t bother because it felt like a waste of time and gold. That said, this is another one that would probably do well near DV and unless I got swarmed, or a human interfered, I think I could earn damage points (and gold) from the bots with impunity.

    When I finish my hour in the Keldon, I’ll post some thoughts on it. So far, it is going surprisingly well!

  • #6088
    Pete
    Pete

    Well thank you. About flying Galaxies, I agree with what you say. I have flown little time with the beta-Galaxy, yet I already profited from the regen torps. One added powerfull advantage of the Galaxy compared to the KEV are the mines, as one mine hit does more damage than the 8 torp hit both Galaxy and KEV can deliver.
    The beta Galaxy will most likely have some reduced effectiveness due to the fact that now, only the DV/Deneva and Ursus regions now remain as battlegrounds with supplies available nearby. Like you said, it is possible to stay there almost indefinitely, especially now with antimatter available at Deneva.
    Numerous interesting little twist were added (fast phasers, new models) in 6.0. Some are potential threats to a Galaxy survival. The shorter torp range for some oblit carrying ships for example. Also, in Delta, I considered Scouts difficult targets best avoided, as I always took heavy damage *if* I could take it out, leaving me vulnerable for other bots to finish the job. Now armed with a cloak, a Scout can be a nightmare. I think the Galaxy will be a good survivor, but Im less sure if I will be able to make lots of gold with it.

    • #6101
      mtrek.com
      mtrek.com
      Keymaster

      Thanks a lot for the Galaxy inputs. I think you’ve confirmed that the Galaxy might just be a little tougher in this version, and that it’s not entirely imagined on my part.

      I’ve been playing around with the Ursus cluster in an attempt expand the battlefield for base-sitting types of classes… but I’m not entirely sure that’s the route I want to take with this. It feels a bit like killing a fly with a hammer. For starters, the quadrant (even with more bots) felt somewhat empty because the bots now seem to spend a lot more time in open space while patrolling, and once more than one bot ends up needing supplies near Ursus, they scare each other and get stuck in a loop of fleeing, heading in for supplies, seeing the other bot, and fleeing again- this with several bots at the same time. I’ve seen this behavior before, and it kind of breaks the immersion for me…

      I’ll leave Ursus there for just a little while, but honestly the Galaxy (and similar ships) balance issues might be better dealt with on an individual-ship-basis, rather than a massive geographical alteration.

  • #6092
    squirel
    squirel
    Participant

    Can you add delta quadrant back in the game. Everything’s so far away and it’s hard trying to find a fight..

    • #6094
      obit
      obit
      Keymaster

      At this point, I’d rather not include Delta. Part of the reason Delta was dropped, is to have a higher concentration of players in one zone, as opposed to having us divided among essentially, two servers (3 if you count xmltrek.com). But another, more overarching reason, was to shift gameplay towards a slightly slower- but more tactical type of gameplay. Since the 100-gold cap was removed from the bots, as will be the case in 6.0, gold earning and score advancement will still be considerably faster, compared to the first 9 months of version 5.x.

      Another factor, is that I started of the beta with a somewhat conservative number of bots (13) to give everyone a chance to find their bearings with the new setup. I don’t intend for players to sit twiddling their thumbs for 10 minutes between every fight, but I also don’t want anyone to become frustrated because they are frequently being overwhelmed by waves of bots. Delta, which played very similarly to mtrek.pro, had a very fast gameplay which centered around clusters of supply planets. The environment was well-suited for some ship classes and play styles, but others were left out. I suppose the advantage of the classic quadrant layout, coupled with the distribution of the bots, is that players can vary their own “intensity” levels by patrolling different areas of the game. For example, the “strip” (Vulcan & SB 3/4/5) will almost always have some bots to shoot at, as will Delta Vega / Deneva. In Gamma quadrant, the planet cluster a, t, and b- along with praxis/sb28 are good places to hunt.

      Another feature re-introduced for 6.0, is the ability to “summon” bots for a fight, provided they are in the same quadrant and full power. To do so, simply send the bot a message with the word “no” in it. If he’s up for it, he’ll reply back that you’re about to suffer some horrible fate, and soon enough he’ll be in your area looking for you. It isn’t 100% guaranteed to get you a fight because, for example, the bot might get attacked on the way to find you.. but I think you get the idea.

      And at the end of the day, if the bot population is still too small, I can always increase the number from 13.

  • #6104
    squirel
    squirel
    Participant

    Please disable the automatic emojis thingy’s… ASCII emojis look MUCH better XD

    “XD” hasn’t been ruined yet πŸ™‚

  • #6106
    mtrek.com
    mtrek.com
    Keymaster

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    • This reply was modified 1 year, 6 months ago by mtrek.com mtrek.com.
  • #6108
    squirel
    squirel
    Participant

    KBOP seems under powered… with everything getting a hull upgrade 1 oblit doesn’t do anything πŸ™ I’m having trouble just dropping their sheilds…

    • #6109
      mtrek.com
      mtrek.com
      Keymaster

      I think that’s the KBOP’s authentic personality shining through. I considered giving the KBOP a second tube, but ultimately left it the way it was because it is still very capable of accumulating score and surviving for a long time if played deliberately.

      Nothing’s “off the table” though, so I’ll add it to the balance list in the original post.

  • #6113
    squirel
    squirel
    Participant

    Could you increase the fire rate?

    • #6114
      mtrek.com
      mtrek.com
      Keymaster

      It is possible to change the RoF for torps… but in this case I’m not sure that’ll necessarily be warranted. Besides, varying the number of tubes provides plenty of adjustment with the damage level increasing in 100-per-second increments for each additional tube.

      The KBOP seems pretty ok in most regards and in the hour or so I’ve played it in the beta, I’ve found it to be a surprisingly capable ship against a variety of other classes. I’ve added it to the list in the original post and will absolutely take a look at the KBOP on an individual level and how it fits into the “big picture” of the game too.

      • This reply was modified 1 year, 6 months ago by mtrek.com mtrek.com.
  • #6133
    squirel
    squirel
    Participant

    Can we have a snack machine @ sb2 pretty plz

  • #6144
    Pete
    Pete

    Game has sort of crashed Im afraid.

    • #6145
      obit
      obit
      Keymaster

      sigh.. the bug that’s haunted the game for more than a decade.

      I’ve restarted it. Thanks for the heads-up!

  • #6146
    squirel
    squirel
    Participant

    Looks like its backup now

  • #6159
    obit
    obit
    Keymaster

    CROSS-POSTED

    6.0.2 (Beta) Update: 21 Feb

    After quite a lot of testing and reading your feedback, I’ve made some ship balance adjustments. Most were very slight tweaks, but here are some of the more noticeable ones:

    • Reduced KEV-12 and KBOP cloak duration to original levels. (50 seconds and 60 seconds, respectively)
    • Added an oblit tube to KBOP. (From 1 tube to 2)
    • Bumped DY-600’s warp cost back to original. (From 1 to 2)
    • VSHAR warp/impulse energy reduction/lowered cloak cost.
    • EXCEL hull adjustment. (45 to 40) Torp capacity up to 66
    • ACR-45 energy tweak, removed drones, bumped mines to 12.
    • CDA-180 +10 torps. (70 to 80)
    • RWAR hull adjustment. (45 to 50)
    • Larson +8 torps. (48 to 56)

    I’ve also bumped the bots up from 17 to 20, and reduced their respawn interval from every 13 seconds to every 60 seconds.

    This week, I’ll concentrate a little more on the middle-speed classes in my testing, and perhaps get through the warp 14 ships. There will likely be another balance patch next weekend, which will hopefully dial-in most of the remaining ships, and i’ll have a look at the results of this weekend’s patch to see if anything else is needed.

    obit

  • #6171
    squirel
    squirel
    Participant

    Loving all the plasma ships so far

    Warbird: Seems pretty decent still would rather use a rwar though
    rwar: Might not have as much shields or cloak as warbird, but being able to go warp 13 off impulse and having 75 torps makes it better than the warbird
    CV97: Overpowered, although it may not be a bad thing since it’s the ship of choice for players wishing to learn plasma.
    RBOP: Only usable by admins XD
    Scout: Great ship, cloak completely changes how it’s used. Feels like you’re using a sphere with plasma bolts.
    GBOP: An rbop with the crutch of plasma bolts, Although you won’t be able to mine. Drones are easily shot down by bots but work great when they do hit.

  • #6172
    squirel
    squirel
    Participant

    D’kora: The increased gold rate makes it worth playing over the gbop. Although you’ll have to use hit-n-run tactics to compensate for no cloak.
    Valdore: The galaxy class of plasma chunker’s. You’ll be able to do dmg even quicker with 2 plasma’s
    Vshar: Ever since you fixed it’s cloak it’s been awesome. Not the most practical plasma chunker, but it’s warp 18 overwarp and being able to sustain it for long duration’s of time make it a lot of fun. The mines and long phaser range give you the possibly to wreck opponents even without plasma.

  • #6173
    obit
    obit
    Keymaster

    Hi Squirel

    Thanks for the review. I will definitely put these thoughts through the grinder after I’ve logged some more testing hours myself.

    I think the WB vs RWAR thing will basically boil down to personal preference. The RWAR is more forgiving and has more torps to tough it out in an extended conflict, while the WB is a little more lethal and earns gold a bit faster. I think both have merits and either one is worthy of flying. I can’t really expect balance to get much better than that.

    I’ll agree that CV is a tough little ship. I think I’d put it on par with our other slow heavy-hitters like the KEV, Galaxy, Valdore etc. I’m not sure that it’s even “overpowered”, but I would definitely feel more comfortable flying it around than I would the “original” CV-97.

    I tend to agree with the rest of your assesments, but I will add that the D’Kora might be a little too strong. I will run it through its paces first to be sure.

  • #6182
    squirel
    squirel
    Participant

    Thanks for adding the mines to the HUD πŸ™‚

    And the new AVG is awesome now… It’s powerful but not invincible.

  • #6202
    obit
    obit
    Keymaster

    *bump*

    Compiled all the patch notes so far into the 1st post.

    Our latest patch included the addition of an xwarp (a la DY-600) to the Classic CON-II. (Not the II-A) Something was needed because it was basically a free kill for a few kinds of ships, and being cloakless, it was utterly defenseless after firing torps. The ultra-low power and high warp cost virtually guaranteed your death in certain situations. Incidentally, the low power means it will be difficult, but not impossible to use the xwarp offensively. Also the pilot must make the judgement call to use xwarp pretty quickly because the xwarp’s 30 warp energy requirement will leave you sitting if you take a few big hits. After playing around with one for a while in the new configuration, it feels much more balanced, and is actually pretty entertaining to fly!

    • This reply was modified 1 year, 5 months ago by obit obit.
  • #6213
    Pete
    Pete

    The bug that’s hunting you is back again, the HUD is empty again.

  • #6214
    squirel
    squirel
    Participant

    Could you add a cloak to the dy-600 it needs one badly…

    • #6215
      mtrek.com
      mtrek.com
      Keymaster

      “Could you add a cloak to the dy-600 it needs one badly…”

      My new 1 hour old DY-600 with over 11,000 gold indicates otherwise. πŸ™‚

      Besides, with transwarp it’s practically indestructible already.

  • #6216
    squirel
    squirel
    Participant

    Did you test it with pvp?

  • #6217
    mtrek.com
    mtrek.com
    Keymaster

    “Did you test it with pvp?”

    Nope. And I think I see where you’re going with this, so let me stop you right there… Over the decades, I have flown DYs successfully enough times, and even put them on the high scoreboards in a pure PvP game. I have a pretty good idea how it handles, and I realize that a lot of PvP fights are going to be one-sided.

    The DY-600 never has been, nor will it be, a PvP slayer. That’s just the personality of it. You’re trading lethality for survivability. The DY, even back before there were bots, has always been a slow-grind. You fly it with an eye for the long game. You’re going to absorb a lot of torps and spend a lot of time xwarping- often without dealing any damage at all. The trade off, is that you can keep the DY alive almost indefinitely with a tiny bit of patience and self-control. Over time, you’ll deal damage, get kills, and earn gold.

    The DY isn’t well-suited for an instant gratification play style. If your idea of fun is to start a new ship each time you log in, and jump straight into battle for some fast action, (nothing wrong with that) the DY probably isn’t for you. It requires a slower, more strategic kind of play. It is a much more rewarding ship for players who like to build up big-gold ships over weeks or months. You have to capitalize on opportunities to vulture injured ships and wait for your enemies to get lulled into making mistakes.

    At near-zero range, the DY can absolutely melt almost any ship in the game (especially with the new upgraded freighter torps and fast-recharge phasers). The xwarp isn’t particularly useful for direct offense, but if you’re mindful of what’s going on in the quadrant, you can use “xwarp braking” and pop in on battling enemies.

    The DY-600 still presents a very viable option for gameplay, which is at the heart of making ship balance work. I think it would be incorrect to say that it “needs” a cloak simply because it doesn’t go well with an aggressive strategy.

    • This reply was modified 1 year, 5 months ago by mtrek.com mtrek.com.
    • This reply was modified 1 year, 5 months ago by mtrek.com mtrek.com.
  • #6219
    squirel
    squirel
    Participant

    O_O you got me there

    How about upgrading the galaxy’s fish tank πŸ™‚

  • #6221
    squirel
    squirel
    Participant

    “””If your idea of fun is to start a new ship each time you log in, and jump straight into battle for some fast action…”””

    I believe you just perfectly described my play style O_O
    I’m guessing the dy will never fit my play style… And thinking back most of my “great dy ideas” probably leaned towards the agressive play style..

    1. Trying to suicide warp into phaser range 13-16
    2 Trying to teleport into phaser range from thin air
    3.
    Q. How much torps could a trigger happy squirel chunk if a trigger happy squirel could chunk freighter torps.
    A. A trigger happy squirel would chunk all that he could chunk if a trigger happy squirel could chunk freighter torps

    Yes I’ve I tried plasma chunking with freighter torps and sadly it doesn’t work nearly as well as it sounds…

    The freighter torps fire at warp 21 and have around a 4400 range but unfortunately they only have a 1 unit detonation range unlike plasma… And besides that plasma does 1500 Dmg compared to 200 dmg..

    “All the great dy ideas” failed pretty hard πŸ™

    Moral of the story
    1.Admins are usually always right
    2.Dy-600 isnt a Klingon ship

  • #6223
    mtrek.com
    mtrek.com
    Keymaster

    Once you learn how to use the freighter torps, you’ll find that chucking them like plasma is indeed one of the core parts of an effective DY strategy. In fact, it can be downright nasty against an opponent unfamiliar with the practice. But… It still won’t change the fact that it’s mostly a defensive ship, though you can earn a lot of points and control areas of space with the “freighter tag”.

    Hint: As you mentioned, the 1-unit detonation radius is a key factor in making the freighter tag work.

  • #6224
    squirel
    squirel
    Participant

    “”Hint: As you mentioned, the 1-unit detonation radius is a key factor in making the freighter tag work””

    How???

    • #6225
      mtrek.com
      mtrek.com
      Keymaster

      Alright. Let’s use orbiting/docking as an example, because it has a similar effect radius of 1-2 distance maximum for your ship to be “orbitable/dockable”.

      In a br5, you can’t drop from warp 16 to warp 0 next to a planet and reasonably expect to be within “orbitable” range. You have to increment down to slower speeds so that when you stop, you are 0-1 units away.

      …or is there a way to stop zero distance from the target planet, using only warp 16 and warp 0, stopping with a single keystroke in the span of one game tick?

      Once you can answer “yes” to the above question, it is an easy translation into making those freighter torps connect. Sorry I’m being so cryptic about this, but figuring out the “why” first will help you gain an understanding of the fundamental mechanics of the game.

      I’m practically giving you the answer here, but do this exercise, and you’ll be freighter tagging in no time:

      • Make a new br5.
      • Dock at starbase 6

      Rules:

      • It has to be a new br5 spawning from Orion
      • You can only use warp 16 and warp 0 within scan range of sb6
      • You can break the first 2 rules, but if you do, you have to quit and start over
      • You can quit and start over as often as you like
  • #6226
    squirel
    squirel
    Participant

    Are you taking about learning to hit a key right before the next tick??

    • #6227
      mtrek.com
      mtrek.com
      Keymaster

      Not really. I’m talking about going warp 16 and then abruptly stopping at 0-1 distance from a sb. If you can figure out how to do that, you can figure out how to use unlocked freighter torps.

  • #6243
    squirel
    squirel
    Participant

    I’m not understanding….

    So I was able to dock there using only warp 16 and 0… But isn’t just a matter of luck???

    • #6244
      mtrek.com
      mtrek.com
      Keymaster

      Well, starting at a random point in space and traveling towards sb6 at warp 16, if you manage to stop as close as possible, there’s about a 4% chance of falling out of warp within a dockable distance -or a 1/25 chance. That’s why most players step down their speed in increments like 16-14-6-3-0

      Since we’re comparing this with the freighter torp, which travels at warp 21 and has a smaller detonation radius than even the docking/orbiting range, you might only hit with 1 or 2 out of your entire 200 torp load. There is very little benefit in chucking them unless you know they’re going to hit. So how can you “know” when they’re capable of hitting? Even more importantly, how can you make it so?

      Take another look at your br5/sb6 exercise. This time, run it in reverse:

      • Start out docked on sb6
      • Using only warp 16 and warp 0, move away from the base at warp 16 and then stop a few seconds later
      • Now move back towards the base and try to stop at zero distance without stepping-down your speed

      I’m willing to bet that by doing this, you can land on the base 50% of the time or better. With practice and timing, you should be hitting it almost every time. Can you tell me why this is true?

  • #6245
    squirel
    squirel
    Participant

    Because I’m not spawning in a random location?

    • #6246
      mtrek.com
      mtrek.com
      Keymaster

      Yes. And can you explain why that makes a difference? Spawning/starting from a random location vs starting docked (0 distance), moving away-then-approaching at the same speed?

      I have a feeling you already know, but when you make the connection here you’ll see how the next step is pummeling your opponents with freighter torps at greater-than-1000 distance.

  • #6248
    squirel
    squirel
    Participant

    darn… I was hoping you weren’t going to say that(I’m rather lazy)

    So let’s assume warp 16 move us 100 units per tick( Even though we not it doesn’t) and we spawn 1450 units away from sb6(even though we won’t) anyway

    1450 % 100 = x

    On the other hand if we start at sb6 and reverse it’ll be something like this

    100t % 100 = y

    Let t represent the amount of ticks passed while traveling warp 16

    x != y

  • #6249
    obit
    obit
    Keymaster

    So what if we spawn at 1450, intercept the base, and then use warp 4 to stop at 1400?

  • #6250
    squirel
    squirel
    Participant

    1400 % 100 = 0

    • #6251
      mtrek.com
      mtrek.com
      Keymaster

      And then what if BR-5s were capable of traveling at warp 21 and will automatically stop/dock at any starbase?

      But instead of docking on sbs, they would explode on ships- oh and we called them unlocked freighter torps instead.

      So… Hypothetically speaking of course, during a battle, your enemy torps you, runs out of torps because your 25/35 shield hull, and then docks at sb4 to load up. Let’s say at the same time, you stop at oh, I dunno, 4,412 distance away from sb4 and intercept.

      Depending on the target’s hull, it will receive possibly 100, maybe more damage in the amount of time it would take them to load 50 of its own torps. Meanwhile, you’re sitting still, recovering shields, and healing damage with all but 10 of your energy.

      In a real fight, most players wouldn’t sit still for that and would probably move on to some other base – leaving you clear to heal/reload without xwarping.

      4,412 isn’t the only distance the freighter tag works, but it’s at the longer end of the scale, and it’s easy to remember. If you want to save yourself some math, grab some scratch paper and fire torps off into space. Watch the distance updates for each tick. You can use that to make a list of distances between 1000 and 4,500 for reference.

      Using the torps like this shouldn’t be your primary DY-600 strategy, but if you always have it in the back of your mind, you’ll find plenty of stationary targets to plink at. Over time, you’ll become proficient at stopping on a dime and remember the distances where the torps will hit.

  • #6252
    squirel
    squirel
    Participant

    Ok, I guess It just depends on the Oppenont… I once fought a defiant who thought it would be a good idea to try to challenge me to a phaserfight. It lost

    Speaking of phaser fights I’ve been using the valdore recently… It’s a sad day for the gorn when a rommie can beat them at a phaser fight.

    Also, I keep wanting to post links and macros in the forums but I can’t use slashes because of the websites xss defense.. Although its going to be great laughing at the the shmuck who tries xss but ends up posting something like this

    Script alert(“xss vulnerable”) script

    And who would even want to use xss when you can fail at SQL injection???

    OP Jh”)damagePercent = 0;

  • #6253
    mtrek.com
    mtrek.com
    Keymaster

    The Valdore is a heavy ship; I would say it’s similar to a KEV-12 or a CV-97…

    In choosing to fly a CL-13 vs a Valdore, I think it’s a trade-off between lethality and survivability. The CL remains one of the top-tier “survivors”, while the Valdore offers a deal more firepower. I think I’d have a tough time grinding the Valdore to the top without constantly keeping my back to a starbase. It can become overwhelmed quickly in busy areas like DV.

    Bots are dumb and fall for a lot of cloaking tricks, so it’s a little hard to say which is “better” because player goals and styles vary widely.

    Just to clarify, are you calling for a Valdore nerf, a Gorn buff, or some combination of both?

    The code tags seem to work, but an error in our site seems to be using white-on-white text. If you highlight the below, you’ll see what I mean.

    I really don’t want nasty scripts running on this site and security comes first, but fixing this:

    (1\014PPPPPp
    (2\033\0240uTt\033\0241\033t

    …is on my to-do list.

  • #6254
    mtrek.com
    mtrek.com
    Keymaster

    What it looks like if I post it here:

    (1\014PPPPPp
    (2\033\0240uTt\033\0241\033t

  • #6255
    squirel
    squirel
    Participant

    “””Just to clarify, are you calling for a Valdore nerf, a Gorn buff, or some combination of both?”””

    If you use plasma use the valdore
    If you can’t use plasma use the cl-13
    If you can sorta use plasma use the cv-97
    If you can use plasma like obit use the rbop
    If you wanna use plasma like obit but can’t use plasma like obit use the GBOP

    I guess it just comes down to taste and the user’s skills….

  • #6256
    squirel
    squirel
    Participant

    Hey rick, Please re-design the borg AVG… It just doesn’t seem like a borg ship… It seems like it’s just a sphere knockoff. On paper it seems good, but not in real life.

    Notice the “hours played” on each scoreboard

    The top ship on SPHERE has 65
    The top ship on AVG has 0 ( In fact they all have 0)

    They AVG is powerful just not practical.

    The AVG gains a torp once every 6 seconds and has to save cloak for emergency’s like br-1k’s and br-2k’s. So you’re basically flying around torpless and afraid to cloak.

    The borg cube is supposed to be AWESOME…. re watch first contact or at least the trailer and you’ll see what I mean πŸ™‚

    • #6285
      obit
      obit
      Keymaster

      My sarcasm/troll detector is pinging a little bit here, but for argument’s sake, let’s take a look at the AVG.

      It just doesn’t seem like a borg ship… It seems like it’s just a sphere knockoff.

      Technically, the Sphere is a spinoff of the AVG-IX

      A brief History of the Borg in MTrek:

      In the mid-1990s Chuck created the “borg” object to combat the global chat spam, and give players a reason to fight, rather than treat the game like a Star-Trek themed chat room. It was an object (basically a planet) that constantly intercepted the last message received and would shoot Warheads (Think Planet Megadon in Gamma) at any ship in range. It also served well to remove campers and base-sitters. The only effective way to damage or kill it was with ship detonations. It was somewhat useful, but widely-regarded as annoying.

      Fast-forward to Jay/Joe’s JavaTrek in the early-2000s, a very similar “borg” was introduced. Instead of being a planetary-type object, it was a DY-600 Robot ship retrofitted with borg-like characteristics

      In 2004 or 2005, I approached Jay with the idea for a Borg as one of the “upgrade” ships. Similar to the Valdore or Vor’Cha, a player could fly a ship to Tech Planet in Delta Quad and exchange his vessel for a Borg AVG IX. The design principle of the ship, was that it was constructed using technology from other ships that had been assimilated into The Collective. In practice, we simply took the specs from 9 of the existing ship classes and averaged them (hence the name). Unfortunately for Borg-lovers across the galaxy, the ship ended up being very weak; the weapons didn’t regenerate and it was not capable of transwarp. It (codenamed “Norm) would later serve as the foundation for today’s Borg Sphere.

      And so it remained. A somewhat useless ship that was very unpopular. Partly due to the fact that traveling to Delta through a Spatial Anomaly was a pain, but mostly because the ship sort of sucked. Its only real value was as a novelty. A couple of players used them simply because they were there and several players became outraged after “upgrading” a high-score ship to an AVG and then later realizing it was actually more of a downgrade.

      In the early days of XmlTrek, before I launched mtrek.com even, I was a regular player there an I pestered Robert (xmltrek admin) to re-instate the ship upgrades for Valdore, Vor’Cha, Galaxy, and AVG IX. I also talked to him about enabling the AI-controlled Borg bots; I may have even suggested to him that the DY-600 borg was cool, but the AVG might be more appropriate given that it was an actual Borg. My recollections of those conversations from 5 years ago is a little fuzzy, but that’s pretty much how it went down. Robert activated the borg bots, changed the name to (cringe) “OMG! A Borg Cube”, and switched the base class from DY to AVG IX. If you fly to Delta via Spatial Anomaly in xmltrek and upgrade to an AVG IX, you’ll find yourself piloting the exact same lackluster “Norm” from the mid-2000s.

      In the buildup mtrek.com, I took a different approach to the AVG. I had long felt that the AVG was falling short of its potential, and as admin here, I was finally in a position to do something about it. First I added the xwarp, I then figured out how to make the photons and other weapons regenerate, and finally I reduced the warp cost and eliminated the need for xtals. This essentially new ship was interesting and dynamic. It was powerful enough to kill other ships and survivable enough to hang on to gold for a very long time. Basically, it was everything the “Norm” wasn’t. So to honor its new identity, I gave it a new name: The Borg Sphere

      With 6.0, I wanted to offer players a wide selection of ships, grouped by the core mtrek ships, jtrek ships, classic pre-1995 ships, and recent mtrek.com originals. This presented me with a choice. Should I lump the Sphere in with the jtrek ships, or celebrate its new identity alongside the mtrek.com originals? It wouldn’t have been accurate to call it “Sphere” as a jtrek ship, and as an mtrek original, it left me with the anemic old AVG IX filling out the list of jtrek ships. I very much wanted to include the AVG, which meant making it strong enough to be playable in today’s game, but I wanted it to be different enough from the Sphere to justify both ships’ existence. So in the AVG-IX’s design, (note the hyphen) I basically put it on steroids, hoping it would retain some of its “II-Aish” feel, and become more borg-like with some region capability. This gives us the nimble xwarping Sphere and the grittier heavy-hitting AVG. Both ships are descended from “Norm”, but neither is as weak or boring to fly.

      Notice the β€œhours played” on each scoreboard

      The current scoreboard with only ships launched in the past 90 days

      A few queries I used when I was developing version 4.0; again filtered to only show post-6.0 ships

      Totals stats of every ship class, only showing post-6.0 ships

      All 3 of those links have filters to only show only recently-launched ships. So Spheres launched pre-beta and flown since then aren’t factored in… but on the other hand, it isn’t quite fair to compare usage, popularity, and survivability between the Sphere/AVG when the AVG hasn’t even been available to play for most of the past year. Also, the sample size is small since only ships launched in the past month or so are being counted. (or 90 days on the hotlist) Take all of that for what it’s worth.

      Personally, I think the AVG is performing quite well.

      The AVG gains a torp once every 6 seconds and has to save cloak for emergency’s like br-1k’s and br-2k’s. So you’re basically flying around torpless and afraid to cloak.

      Nothing stopping you from buying torps on occasion, and 50 seconds of cloak is probably more than it needs, tbh. In terms of strategy, think of it as a sort of II-A.. except more robust. I’ve found it quite easy to keep alive and more than capable of killing every bot I targeted in the hour I played it. In fact, using the AVG-IX, I placed in the Top 10″ for 5 of the categories listed on the stats page:

      • #10 for DmgGiven/Second (1-9 occupied by a D-10 and 8 JHs)
      • #4 for GoldEarned/Second (behind a DY, an ACR, and a JH)
      • #1 for DmgGiven/Conflict (leading the #2 ship by more than 1,000)
      • #1 for GoldEarned/Conflict (with 1,153 per cfl – I wasn’t being particularly selective of my targets.)
      • #6 for DmgRcvd/Conflict (This is a “Hall of Shame” listing, but it really speaks to the fact that I survived having 100+ damage and likely wouldn’t have survived, had I been flying a less durable class)

      [update] I just noticed that after 20+ conflicts, Pete’s AVG-IX is #2 in the game for DmgGiven/DmgReceived ratio… How is this thing not good enough?

      The borg cube is supposed to be AWESOME…

      1: The Borg AVG-IX is not a Cube
      2: The AVG-IX is awesome

      I would ask you to reconsider your position on the AVG. Are you asking me to fix an under-powered, unbalanced ship, or are you really asking for some supercharged uber-ship? (which would detract from the game’s balance)

      To be perfectly honest, after flying the AVG for an hour in its current state, I’m actually considering the possibility that it’s overpowered. It was a blast to fly and I could see it quickly becoming a top-tier ship if the other players catch on…

      • This reply was modified 1 year, 5 months ago by obit obit. Reason: edited link
      • This reply was modified 1 year, 5 months ago by obit obit.
  • #6284
    Pete
    Pete

    Tested some ships the last few weeks. Galaxy/D10/KBOP fly pretty good, yet are not invicible. No balance issues as far as Im concerned. I am a little less sure about ACR and Defiant. ACR flies easy as well, yet may get in to trouble easily when multiple enemies are around. It appears to be harder to fight with a Defiant, mostly due to new ship specs from other ships. I dont think they are imbalanced: not all ships have to be easy. Im not sure about the D7 either, but that is mostly due to its similarities with D10 and D11. For my kind of flying, D10 and D11 apperar to be a better choice.
    Didnt try excel and Keldon yet.

    • #6286
      obit
      obit
      Keymaster

      Thanks for the feedback, Pete! I’ve spent at least an hour in each of the ships you mentioned, and I pretty much agree with your assessments 100%.

      The Defiant, ACR-45, and the D7 are all perhaps “weak-ish” in their own ways, and that’s by design. As you say, not every ship has to be “easy”. We might get a little spoiled in ships with regen weapons, large torp-spreads, and get-out-of-jail-free cards like xwarp… I’d say those three ships in particular really just depend on a player’s preference and play style. I think I could get any one of them up pretty high on the scoreboard, for whatever that’s worth…

      I feel pretty good about where the Excel and the Keldon are. I had a lot of fun flying both, but a second opinion would certainly be welcome.

  • #6308
    squirel
    squirel
    Participant

    “””I would ask you to reconsider your position on the AVG. Are you asking me to fix an under-powered, unbalanced ship, or are you really asking for some supercharged uber-ship? (which would detract from the game’s balance)”””

    I’m asking you to make it different

    • #6309
      obit
      obit
      Keymaster

      How?

  • #6310
    squirel
    squirel
    Participant

    Redesign it to make it more unique… right now it seems to be a knockoff of the sphere.

    • #6311
      obit
      obit
      Keymaster

      Always glad to hear some constructive criticism. Player feedback drives most of the decisions I make here, so I’m wide open to suggestions.

      But let’s be honest here, simply telling me to completely redesign a ship to “make it more unique” is pretty vague.

      Maybe you could share which of these areas you think should be adjusted to make the AVG-IX less of a “Sphere knockoff”? (nevermind that the AVG predates the Sphere by about a decade…)

      Turning Warp:
      Cruising Warp:
      Emergency Warp:
      Warp Energy:
      Warp Energy (w/ xtals):
      Impulse Energy:
      Transwarp?:
      Tracking?:
      Warp cost:
      Hull pct:
      Shields:
      Cloak sec:
      Cloak pwr:
      Cloak rgn:
      Visibility:
      Scan Range:
      Phaser type:
      Phaser power:
      Phaser recharge:
      Phaser range:
      Torpedo type:
      Torpedo tubes:
      Torpedo regen:
      Torpedo min range:
      Torpedo max range:
      Torpedo quantity:
      Variable sp drones?:
      Drone power:
      Drone regen:
      Drone quantity:
      Mine power:
      Mine regen:
      Mine quantity:
      Gold earning rate:
      Anything else:

      So let’s start with that. And in the meantime, maybe another player could weigh in on the discussion. (Mike? Pete? pleeeease…) This whole thing seems awfully familiar. Only, last time it was Harold. The difference was, he said (rather vaguely) that it was too Larson/Galor-like and that it should be Feared, so I redesigned it… But according to the logs, I’m pretty sure he hasn’t flown it at all since the redesign. Go figure.

  • #6313
    Pete
    Pete

    I am sorry Squirel, but i dont see the problem either. I flew the AVG for over an hour yesterday, I it is a great ship. Bumped it to the #1 spot for AVG….

  • #6314
    obit
    obit
    Keymaster

    In other news:

    I flew the Ferengi for an hour…

    And it’s a good ship!

    It isn’t very lethal, and in fact, I found myself running away (overwarping) from more powerful ships on several occasions. I was actually kind of getting beat up. There were some tense moments as my damage crept over 100 a few times. It never seemed to have enough torps, and being mindful not to ESI my own drones turned out to be an important part of my strategy if I had any hope of scoring a kill.

    Early in my session, I was being cheap and I didn’t bother getting xtals because it felt like it had enough energy with its low warp cost. After using long bursts of warp 16 to bring down an Orion or escape certain death (which was more often the case) I decided that staying alive is worth the expense and seconds spent refueling.

    And then there’s the gold. Ahhhh that glorious MTrek gold… The thing that makes this ship worthwhile to fly, is its nice gold earning rate. Because that whole time I was getting slapped around by bigger ships, I was dealing some damage too. And the Ferengi have ways of swindling a premium out of the starbases when it’s time to pay up. I even managed to set a couple of gold-earning records on the stats page. (#3 for Gold/Second and #10 for Gold/Conflict)

    I was enjoying an entirely new style of play (for me) with my usual priorities on their head. 1st: Survival. 2nd: Try to deal some damage. 3rd: Maybe get a kill here and there. I was targeting bots based on how many points of damage I might be able to deal or how much bonus I would earn over how much gold they were carrying.

    I felt like I was struggling a lot with this class, but every time I docked, I couldn’t help but smile when I raked in some more gold. I don’t think I’ve even realized the full potential of this ship yet, but I think it’s already earned a spot in my “core” fleet alongside my CL, RBoP, and II-A.

  • #6325
    obit
    obit
    Keymaster

    Tested: GALOR, BR-2000, and CDA-120

    • The Galor (obviously) bears a striking resemblance to the Ferengi in terms of form and function. However, the extra torp range and the regenerating mine open up the possibility of killing more ships, while the long scan range paired with low-visibility (75) give you a nice leg-up on situational awareness. There were a couple of tense moments but in general, I felt in control of the battlefield most of the time. I would certainly consider the Galor to fill a similar role to that of the Larson as a versatile, aggressive “slayer”. Thanks to the ESI and the regen mine, I think it would be especially useful against slower cloaking ships and it would probably rank near the top of my list for PvP.
    • The BR-2000 was a little challenging at first, but once I settled into a nice groove, I found it very rewarding to fly. I think the trouble was that I had grown accustomed to more “rugged” ships, and it took a bit of an adjustment on my part to be conscious of the relatively weak hull & shields. I found that the key was to accept that I can’t kill every target I go after in one torp load, and sometimes it was best to use the long torp range to deliver torps, and then simply leave to reload. The warp 14 was plenty to keep me out of trouble most of the time, but I was wary of faster ships like the D’Kora or the Interceptor. I didn’t have an opportunity to test this theory, but I felt like this is probably a great ship to beat a KEV-12. Full power and in open space, I have little doubt that I could kill one in PvP using the BR-2000. If I have a load of torps and you’re in a Sphere, just go ahead and xwarp.
    • The CDA-120 felt very familiar, and works like basically a lighter, faster Galor. The current 120 is almost identical to the mtrek.pro and 4.x versions, with a regen mine and the ability to heal to its max of 120 Warp Energy. The hull is durable enough to get dirty in a fight and put the ESI to good use, and the Variable-Speed drones can punish a target that fails to zap them. On the flip side, if your opponent is zapping your drones, that means they have less energy to shoot you with, so it’s really win/win. The 10k scan range, 85 Visibility, and warp 14 gave me the initiative most of the time, but as with other non-cloakers, I had to be mindful of the faster Int/DK and the BR-5/6s. All-in-all, it’s a fun ship, and it has a lot of potential as a PvP ship. (Look out, Galaxys!)
  • #6328
    squirel
    squirel
    Participant

    //FOR MY OFFICAL BETA RESPONE

    There are places I remember
    All my life, though some have changed
    Some forever, not for better
    Some have gone and some remain
    All these places have their moments
    With comrades and friends I still can recall

    But of all these friends and comrades
    There is none like cannonball(delta map)
    And these memories lose their meaning
    When I think of mtrek as something new
    Though I know I’ll never lose affection
    For people and things that went before
    I know I’ll often stop and think about them
    There is none like cannonball(delta map)

    Though I know I’ll never lose affection
    For people and things that went before
    I know I’ll often stop and think about them
    There is none like cannonball(delta map)

    Squirel in uniform does military salute to code in casket with tears in eyes. Goodbye 5.0

  • #6333
    obit
    obit
    Keymaster

    I’m not sure that song means what you think it means…

    As I understand it, John Lennon is professing his (present) romantic love for “cannonball(delta map)” [sic] by reminiscing over all of his most cherished memories in life and asserting that his (present) romantic love for “cannonball(delta map)” [sic] is even greater than his already immense love for all of the people, things, and places in those memories.

    Or maybe that’s precisely the message you’re trying to convey, and in that case, cheer up bro, because that means you’ll still have room in your heart to fall deeply (and romantically hahaha) in love with mtrek.com’s Software Version 6.X.

    That said, I might ask that this song is played at my funeral, just to make sure everybody has a good cry.

    (Note on Canonball spelling: The map layout was nicknamed “Canonball” with one n between a and o instead of nn which isn’t exactly an intentional misspelling, but rather a new word altogether; “Canon” is referring to Star Trek canon, and not to the large caliber gun that fires “cannonballs”. The second part of the name, “ball” was simply pointing out the circular array of the map.)

    R.I.P. 5.X 2015-2016
    Canonball
    MRW Germany beat Canonball 7-1 in the 2014 World Cup.

    P.S. I doubt we’ve seen the last of the Canonball map…

  • #6334
    obit
    obit
    Keymaster

    Tested: BR-5 & BR-1000

    Really no surprises with either of these. Both ships are basically “easy mode”.

    • The BR-5 proved adept at picking off bots that stray away from the herd. The speed and cloak remains effective as always at punching holes through the AI to score some easy kills. Being a warp 16 ship, it was really only in danger when I let it be. There’s not much to say about this one.
    • The BR-1000 was enjoyable to fly for what it is. I think the most “profitable” way to operate it, is to use it as intended- that is, buzz around dumping torps on targets with the super long torp range and only move in close for a kill if a good opportunity presents itself. The only encounter that worried me was once in Beta quad when a D’Kora caught me out in space with only 20 torps. It could have ended badly for me had I been completely empty, but as it was, I managed to do a little damage before making it burn warp to get in close. I ran in for a phaser/mine which gave the DK just enough damage to make it run. The Gold bonus all Orions receive was more than enough to make up for the cautious play style needed for the BR1K, and firing only torps at no-score ships still returned a decent profit.

    I’m ok with both of these as they are.

  • #6335
    squirel
    squirel
    Participant

    Yeah looking bad at the post I messed up…

    Trying to say Im gonna miss cannonball and all the good times teaming/sparring there… πŸ™

    • #6336
      obit
      obit
      Keymaster

      It’s all good man. Just messing with you.

      As for the Canonball map, I’m kicking around ideas for an mid-year expansion, possibly mission based, that revolves around the Borg and Delta Quadrant. One idea includes a variant of that map, but reskinned to be more Delta Quad-ish.

  • #6337
    obit
    obit
    Keymaster

    Tested: VORCHA

    The Klingon Vor’Cha has always been one of the more powerful ships in the game. For 6.0 that hasn’t changed. All of the ships received a buff of some sort, and the Vor’Cha is no different. There’s nothing apparent on the ship specs chart, but in fact, the regen-rate of the oblits has been increased to 1-per-second. So given enough time, the Vor’Cha is capable of detonating nearly any ship, even with only 3 oblit tubes. The speed and scan range combine to give the player almost full control over which ships are targeted, and I found it possible to dominate even crowded areas like Delta Vega.

    The hull and shield are decent, but given the (relatively) limited torpedo range, the small number of tubes, and the slow regen-rate of the 40-second cloak, you have to be willing to take some damage in the process of killing your targets. If you try to deal out death on pace commensurate with your torp-regen, you might find yourself (as I did) fighting full-power ships when you have 70+ damage. The Vor’Cha simply can’t heal damage fast enough to keep up with torp/xtal reloading. The Vor’Cha is absolutely a bot-slayer, but it might not fare quite so well against a skilled human. Still, I think it might be somewhat Overpowered. Pushing it to its limits, I eventually got myself killed though so there’s that…

    Even if it’s a little overpowered, I’m not sure that it needs to be nerfed; I don’t forsee the Vor’Cha becoming the only ship to fly when there are so many other good ships to use. It isn’t a world-killer and there are plenty of ways to counter it if another (human) player comes after you in it.

  • #6338
    squirel
    squirel
    Participant

    Ground Control to Major Squirel
    Ground Control to Major Squirel
    Eat your acourns and put your helmet on
    Ground Control to Major Squirel (Ten, Nine, Eight, Seven, Six)
    Commencing countdown, engines on (Five, Four, Three)
    Check ignition and may God’s love be with you (Two, One, Liftoff)

    This is Ground Control to Major Squirel
    You’ve really made the grade
    And the papers want to know which ships you fly
    Now it’s time to leave the capsule if you dare
    “This is Major Squirel to Ground Control
    I’m stepping through the door
    And I’m floating in the most peculiar way
    And the stars look very different today
    For here am I sitting in my tin can
    Far above the world
    Planet earth is blue
    And there’s nothing I can do

    Though I’m past one hundred thousand miles
    I’m feeling very still
    And I think my xwarp knows which way to go
    Tell my friends I like them very much, they know(hopefully…)
    Ground Control to Major squirel
    Your transmitters fried there’s something wrong
    Can you hear me, Major Squirel?
    Can you hear me, Major squirel?
    Can you hear me, Major Squirel?
    Can you hear And I’m floating around my tin can
    Far above the Moon
    Planet Earth is blue
    And there’s nothing I can do.”

    I just had to πŸ™‚

  • #6341
    obit
    obit
    Keymaster

    Tested: DKORA

    In true Ferengi fashion, the D’Kora isn’t the most powerful ship in its speed category, but it does have a nice gold earning bonus to help make up for that.

    If you time your shots well, you can make those plasma bolts really count. It doesn’t have cloak, but the ultra-low visibility and warp 15 cruising speed give you an element of surprise against a lot of ships. (Though I think the Vis will really only matter much in PvP.)

    I didn’t think the DK was super-easy to fly, but I was probably being overly aggressive with it. However, with a slightly more cautious hit-and-run strategy, I do think it’s capable of reaching the top levels of the scoreboard.

    I found myself wishing I had more torps a few times, but in general, it felt like a well-sorted ship and its limitations were apparent from the start. The disruptors deal full damage out to 700 range, so there’s really no need to go much closer than that. I found that a macro to fire bolts and phasers together was useful, as well as perhaps a couple of warp 11-14 bolt firing macros. I think I was running bolt macros for 11, 13, & 15.

    Bolts only deal about 1/2 the *STRUCTURAL* damage of a standard plasma, so to help make up for this, I would try to find ways to slow the target down enough so I could switch over to regular and earn more points / deal more damage. I would use maybe half of the torps as bolts mixed with phasers, and then move in just close enough so the bot would phaser me. Depending on the class, that would normally do the trick so I could finish it off with plasma.

    I figured out quickly that most obliterator-equipped ships should just be avoided, and that the D’Kora really can’t handle itself well against teams. Unfortunately, if you’ve just killed a ship (or nearly killed it) you’ll probably end up sacrificing the gold if another predator comes along.

    Overall, I’d say the D’Kora is quirky and gold-driven enough the be worthy as a Ferengi. Performance-wise, I’d say it’s somewhere in the middle of the pack, and is neither overpowered nor underpowered. I found it to be an entertaining ship, and a player that does well with fast ships like the BR-5/6 or the Romulan Interceptor, will probably make a fortune in a D’Kora. I don’t see any adjustments needed here at all.

    • This reply was modified 1 year, 4 months ago by obit obit. Reason: STRUCTURAL, A.K.A. INTERNAL
  • #6343
    squirel
    squirel
    Participant

    Actually plasma bolt does exactly 1/2 dmg of a standard plasma torp

    Plasma 1500
    Warp 10 vp 1200
    Warp 5 vp 600
    Plasma bolt 750

    • #6345
      obit
      obit
      Keymaster

      thanks

  • #6350
    squirel
    squirel
    Participant

    The d7 and warbird seem a bit obsolete…

    • #6351
      obit
      obit
      Keymaster

      Perhaps those two ships just aren’t well suited for your particular play style… because you know, neither one them is named “Sphere” or “RWAR”… Amiright?

      Besides, if the owner of a certain 138K Warbird and a 40K D7 were to log in and see those ships gone… well, you wouldn’t have to answer for it- but I would. And I don’t really want to have that conversation right now haha

  • #6352
    squirel
    squirel
    Participant

    I’m not asking you to get rid of the ships I’m asking you to make them different than their close relatives.

    Warbird/Rwar

    When I was first learning plasma I was flying a warbird and a player who I greatly admired said something to the tune of

    “Use the Rwar instead it’s like a warbird on steroids”

    The warbird might have better hull and shields but it can’t handle the damage it does take… Even if warbird had 70 torps and Rwar had 35 I’d still fly the Rwar.. The Rwar is more survivable…

    In fact with most ships I usually use a *tiny* bit of caution but there’s absolutely no need with the Rwar since it handles damage extremely well. I dont see how the warbird is a better choice since its a sitting duck when it takes dmg.

    And I don’t see why anyone would pick a

    Kpb over a d11
    D7 over a d11 or kev or vorcha

    …?

    “”because you know, neither one them is named β€œSphere” or β€œRWAR”… Amiright?””

    I fly most of the ships (grinding bots for hours can get kinda boring in the same ships.I get bored quickly btw :p) I usually resort to sphere and Rwar since since there extremely survivalble and I can resort to the suicide play style without spending too much time repairing, and can take on every other ship class. I think I’ll be adding VORCHA to my favorite ship list too.

    My idea of fun is grabbing a ship, flying to delta vega, and then sending all the bots the word “no”, and then blowing everything up, then quitting…

    Happy hunting / boiling bots πŸ™‚

    • #6354
      obit
      obit
      Keymaster

      lol I get it man. We’ve been going in circles with this for a while. I was j/k about the sphere/rwar, but seriously, take a moment to consider:

      It isn’t illogical or wrong for other players to want to play the game differently from the way you play. Not everyone has the same strategies, the same goals, or the same skills. So I should hope that it’s conceivable to you, that another player’s experience in a particular class might be wholly different from your own.

      For example, you’ve been pretty vocal against the AVG-IX, and you’ve made it clear enough that you don’t care for it. That’s perfectly fine. On the other hand, Pete has logged 11+ hours and earned nearly 75K over the past week or so in an AVG. I can’t speak for him, but he did call it a “great ship” a few posts back. Is he wrong? Are you? Is anyone?

      Your generalization of the WB vs RWAR vs KPB vs D7 vs D-11 vs KEV vs Vorcha- is basically the same discussion as the Borgs all over again. I don’t feel like spelling out the individual merits of each class right now, but suffice it to say, there are merits to every one of those ships. And even though you can’t see a reason why anyone would fly X instead of Y, someone else might.

      Not everyone would agree with me on this (you obviously don’t), but I think it’s fantastic that there are so many ships, and I actually like that some of them offer only subtle variations across a spectrum of ship-designs. (WB/RWAR – Br5/Br6 – BR1K/BR2K – KEV/D7/D-11/Vorcha). I think it’s really cool that ships of the same species share some of the same archetypes. The variants, to me at least, give the ships slightly different personalities, but a Klingon still feels like a Klingon, an Orion still feels like an Orion, and a Rommie still feels like a Rommie… I also think it’s neat that different species offer their own versions of similar ships to fill certain “roles” in the game (KEV/Galaxy – Larson/Galor – RBOP/GBOP – Valdore/V’Shar).

      Quit trying to rule out which ship is “obsolete” or “inferior” simply because there’s another like it, or because it’s an older design… If nothing else, look at it like buying cars, and you can afford as many cars as you like. Maybe the Federation is Ford, the Klingons are Dodge, and the Romulans are Chevy. Chevy doesn’t need to redesign the Camaro into a pickup truck because you’d rather drive a Mustang, any more than Ford needs to discontinue the Mustang because they built a pickup truck with a Ford V8 engine. If you own a construction business, don’t complain that you can’t fit enough lumber into a compact car. Instead, buy a truck and let the accountant guy enjoy decent gas mileage on his way to work. Maybe on the weekend, you could cruise around in a 1972 Gorn Firebird.

      Build your fleet to suit your style. Maybe you have a thing for Rommies. Or maybe you like fast ships, but you’re crap without a cloak. If you don’t care about DamageGiven/DamageReceived-Ratio and Gold doesn’t particularly interest you, maybe you should stick to the easier RWAR, while somebody else flies the slightly more powerful, but also more challenging Warbird- and cashes in on the 20% more gold that it earns.

      It doesn’t have to make sense. Otherwise, the game would have only a single perfect ship class. “Good morning, Captain! Welcome aboard the USS Ship, a Ship class Starship!”

      Please let me know if I’m completely missing the mark here, but my focus on ship balance really boils down to answering a few questions about each ship:

      • Is this ship playable? (Could an average-skill player have a reasonable chance at achieving a typical goal for this specific ship)
      • Could someone be entertained by playing this ship? (NOT necessarily “Are you entertained”. Maybe you can’t hit squat with plasma or maybe you can’t control a ship faster than warp 14. If someone else can, the answer might still be yes)
      • Are the other classes still worthwhile to fly? (A litmus test to see if the ship is “OP”. Is this class just so incredible, that it would be painfully difficult or even impossible to achieve similar results in a different class?)
      • Are there any other ships that can operate in the game without getting completely wrecked by this one? (assuming both pilots are of a similar skill level)

      Ideally, the answer should be “yes” to all of those questions, and then it’s just fine tuning from there.

      • This reply was modified 1 year, 4 months ago by obit obit.
    • #6358
      squirel
      squirel
      Participant

      I think you won

    • #6359
      obit
      obit
      Keymaster

      Dude I’m not trying to “win”. I’m just struggling to figure out if there’s something wrong with the ship balance -and how to fix it if there is.

      “Balance” can be very subjective, and my point of view is also going to be skewed by my own play style, goals, and skills.

      I’m sorry if I’m being overly defensive about the game; I just want to get it right. I don’t think I’ve gone overboard with the introduction of so many ships, but I’m open to that possibility…

      But it might simply be a “thematic” issue- that I haven’t effectively explained why the ships are balanced the way they are. Perhaps I’m relying too heavily on the ships to speak for themselves when in fact, they aren’t as self-apparent to others as they are to me.

      For example, not everyone else will pick up on the nostalgia factor behind including the RWAR, CON-II, D-11 etc, or see any value in giving every Klingon the same WE/IE. I suppose to a new player, these things might just seem redundant when they haven’t been properly explained.

    • #6360
      squirel
      squirel
      Participant

      Somehow ship balance is more controversial and emotional than politics and sports combined…

    • #6361
      obit
      obit
      Keymaster

      People don’t think game balance be like it is, but it do.

      -BSM

    • #6362
      squirel
      squirel
      Participant

      You lost me

    • #6363
      obit
      obit
      Keymaster

      People don’t think this internet meme be like it is, but it do.

      nevermind…

    • #6364
      squirel
      squirel
      Participant

      Ideekay..???

  • #6353
    squirel
    squirel
    Participant

    how did han solo cross the road on endor? Ewoked

    • #6357
      obit
      obit
      Keymaster

      “how did han solo cross the road on endor?”

      Ewoked He was lured to the other side by a tin of SPAM

  • #6365
    squirel
    squirel
    Participant

    Could you resurrect the “no spamming and “introduce yourself” forums posts and delete my posts/comments on the introduce yourself thread. Thanks –Sq

    • #6366
      obit
      obit
      Keymaster

      If you’re talking about the ones from the old website… those forums were nuked in the migration. I can sticky a new “introduce yourself” thread of you like.

  • #6374
    squirel
    squirel
    Participant

    Pretty plz could you do that

    • #6378
      obit
      obit
      Keymaster

      k

  • #6381
    squirel
    squirel
    Participant

    The “please don’t spam” post looks a lot more serious than the last one… I was hoping for a reverse sociology laid back kinda post that directs all spam to that thread. But I guess the site needs a serious no spamming warning…

    Anyway thanks for teaching me how to use the tracking xwarp.. ITZ AMAZING. It’s not the easiest ship to fly but I’m sure sure in the right hands/paws it’s pretty lethal. It was extremely fun to fly and I realized something while flying it. I think I see mtrek a little differently… Before hand my idea of mtreking was grabbing the ships I was the most lethal in and slaughtering FTW but now thinking about it… Mtrek is a game. Games are meant to be fun. And maybe challenging yourself with unique and less lethal ships might be a rewarding challenge…. I’m guessing that’s why “outclassed” ships are still flown..

    –Sq

  • #6387
    Pete
    Pete

    I was flying a warp 14 ship to Ursus and a Vorcha followed me all the way there at about 3200 distance. When I was near Ursus, suddenly the Vorcha slowed down and it was at 120+ dmg! No other ships around, I didnt fire a shot at him. It slowly blead out there. Happened Monday, around 14.06 server time.

    • #6389
      obit
      obit
      Keymaster

      Oh dear. Sounds like a reactor failure.

      RAAAAAAAAAAAAGGGHGHHHHH!!!!!!!!1!!!!!

      [J/k. It’s an intentional bit of coding- a fail safe to keep broken bots from wandering off into space. It seems it might need some adjustment.]

  • #6462
    obit
    obit
    Keymaster

    Thanks all for your inputs and support. Happy hunting in Version 6!

  • #6488
    squirel
    squirel
    Participant

    Hi, had a few questions/comments and wanted to put them all in one big post πŸ™‚

    First off is that a picture of you in your profile pic?

    Nice job with the new welcome.txt it looks pretty awesome/classic

    I’ve been flying the rbop off and on and I think I might’ve got the hang of it. It just clicked while reading one of your rbop war stories from like 4 years ago… And I think it’s been said a lot but… THE RBOP IS THE UPTIMATE SHIP

    Rambo + Dirty Harry + Neo + The A Team + Captain Kirk, Spock, Data, Riker, + Macgyver + Bruce lee + Chuck Norris + Godzilla = RBOP (I’m sorry if I left out your favorite movie character but you get the point) THE RBOP IS INCREDIBLE although it is hard to use… But when flying the RBOP I rembered the GBOP. The gbop is just like the rbop but with bolts and drones. So I flew the gbop for a little while. And somehow the gbop seemed to be more powerful that the rbop πŸ™

    The gbop’s drones are pretty useless in battle since cloaking and droning won’t work due to the drone detonation delay and they’re ineffective if the oppenont is running. And bots usually always whack drones. So the rbop has the advantage there…

    But the bolts are a HUGE advanate for the Gbop since you can simply match the speed and plasma bolt the way you would in a vorcha. In fact you can fly a gbop the EXACT same way as you would a vorcha and use plasma to finish off the oppenont. So the gbop has the potentional to be very nasty and even players with very low skill can do a decent amount of damage with it. So what I’m wondering is

    1.Why is no one using the gbop?
    2.Does the power of the rbop make the steep learning curve worth it when there’s a crutch available?

    And srry for jabbing the dialogue. I don’t personally like it but I guess other people do…

    • #6490
      obit
      obit
      Keymaster

      First off is that a picture of you in your profile pic?

      Yep, that’s me. I have no idea who the guy sitting at the computer is though.

      Why is no one using the gbop?

      Because no one realizes how OP it is.

      Does the power of the rbop make the steep learning curve worth it when there’s a crutch available?

      The RBoP is the Dark Side of The Force- a villainous power of corruption, set to unleash the flames of War upon all who bear inadequate dodge-plasma macros against it. Its sinister Black Lore is a Magick of destruction, which uses cloak and mines and rams to draw strength from its enemies’ souls. Thine torps are thy Scales and thy Trident. Fueled by a Plasma of Fury, they lay waste and pestilence to all the lands. The Vanquisher of Hope. The Hand of Death. The Fist of Might and Mayhem. Yessss…… The RBoP’s Power is undeniable. The real question would be, Is it worth the risk of being consumed by the immense Power of RBoP?

      Basically, those who can, do. And those who can’t, fly the GBOP.

  • #6489
    squirel
    squirel
    Participant

    Oh and plz un-nerf the Rwar πŸ™‚

    • #6495
      obit
      obit
      Keymaster

      K

  • #6496
    squirel
    squirel
    Participant

    The Rwar purifies evil and viciously destroys all those who defy squirel.

    Then it got nerfed. πŸ™

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